One of the dirtiest secrets in higher education is that getting in--the focus of 18 years of hard work in some families--is no guarantee of college success. The sad truth is that at many public four-year colleges and universities fewer than half of entering freshmen complete a degree within six years. And in some cases those low average rates conceal incredible disparities based on race and family income.
Kevin Carey of Education Sector has done a remarkable job at turning the nation's attention to this often overlooked problem in recent years. He helped create College Results Online which enables the average Joe to spend hours of fun picking out individual schools and seeing just how low their graduation rates can go. (Seriously, go check it out-- it's FUN!)
Most recently Carey issued Graduation Rate Watch, a report that uses six years of federal data to look at changes over time in the black-white gap in college completion. His primary point: between 2002 and 2006 some schools made significant strides in closing their gaps, while others did not. And in fact, some schools had (and have) no gap at all. Therefore, Carey concludes, the answers are clear: too many colleges are indifferent to the plight of minority students, they know what they need to do, and we just need to push them to do it.
Kevin and I agree on most things. We agree that the feds and states are paying far too little attention to low rates of college success. We agree that disparities in degree completion rates are unacceptable. And we agree that institutions of higher education need to be a part of the solution But on one crucial point we disagree: what should be done.
Drawing on a case study of a single college (Florida State) and its lovely college-support program CARE, Kevin contends that the solution to closing the college achievement gap lies in "creating incentives for institutional leaders to act on the knowledge that already exists." His goal in making this kind of statement is to get educators to step up-- they know what needs to be done, and what remains is to take action.
But the researcher in me hesitates to endorse this plan. Here are a few reasons why:
1. There is little evidence that differences in students' college graduation rates are primarily or even substantially attributable to school-level factors. Go back to the Coleman report--his intelligent hypothesis was that inequities in schools due to segregation were driving black/white differences in educational outcomes. But instead he found that family background and other student-level characteristics drove far more of the variation in student achievement. Yes, some school-level factors matter--among them teacher quality--but empirical evidence indicated that changing schools themselves would not diminish educational inequality much.
Why would we think things would be different in higher education? The typical argument goes like this: We know that institutional choices and policies (financial aid, academics, advising, faculty, incentives, student engagement, etc) matter in terms of student learning, retention, and attainment. Given our diverse, decentralized higher education "system" there is substantial inter-institutional variation in the quality of those choices and policies. Therefore, "institutional effects" should be significant and real.
Well, they may be significant, they may be "real," but there is little hard data to say that they are large and should be the main focus of policy reform. I'm not saying that colleges and universities aren't different from one another in ways that matter, but because higher education is not compulsory and its gates are closely guarded by the gods of test scores and $$ the level of stratification in the college entry process is so intense that students attending different schools are very different from one another. There have been very few studies of institutional effects in higher ed that deal with that selection issue appropriately. I strongly suspect that if a good study were done (and given data constraints it'd be hard to do), we'd find that policymakers would get the biggest bang for their buck by working to reduce race, class and gender disparities in who goes to college and where they go.
2. Another important concern: There can be unintended consequences when you push colleges to close achievement gaps. Take this scenario: You've got 30 percentage point gap in college completion, with 40% of black students finishing a degree in 6 years, compared to 70% of whites. You want to close that gap. So you tell your admissions director to solve the problem. And he does: by being more selective in which black kids he admits. Admitting only very highly-prepared black students may mean a decline in the number of black kids on campus, but it's likely to increase the completion rate of those who are admitted. And if he coupled his efforts with a greater effort at targeted recruiting of minorities (including directing merit-based scholarships at them) , he might succeed in simultaneously increasing diversity and completion rates. Not a bad thing per se (perhaps) but definitely not what Carey has in mind...
3. There is not a shred of evidence that FSU's CARE program actually works to increase student retention or achievement. No evaluation that takes into account who they serve to start with, nada. Yes, they've got data indicating that CARE students start with lower entering test scores than other students and end up with higher retention rates, but NO--this doesn't automatically mean that success is due to the program. What if CARE students are simply more motivated than other students-- meaning that they were more likely to be retained from the start? We don't have any way to account for that in the absence of a good ol' random assignment trial where we assign students at random to participate in CARE. Now that would be worth doing!
Of course I understand that Kevin's goals are different from mine. Ultimately he operates in a world where being 51% sure that you're right when making policy recommendations is sufficient-- after all, if we don't advocate for changes in colleges, there might not be attention paid to higher ed at all (or dollars spent). But in my little research world, I need to be much more confident that the recommendation I'm making will be effective in creating the kind of change we aim for--AND, I want to focus on what will make the biggest difference. And there's simply little hard evidence to suggest that adopting a program like FSU's would help to close the black/white gaps in completion at other schools.
Why not--instead of "tinkering at the margins" with school reform--tackle the larger and more systemic problems like ending poverty and racial segregation? (Why is it that educators and educational policymakers have a hard time seeing what happens outside of schools as being part of their domain?) Why not make higher education compulsory, and in doing so greatly increase the motivation to make high school meaningful? Why not re-envision the entire system and create a p-16 structure which compels higher ed and secondary ed to take an interest in one another?
The last thing we need to do is fan the flames of fears about accountability, encouraging colleges and universities to turn even more inward, engaging in ego-think, and directing their attention at self-preservation rather than student success. We do want them to do more-- and they can be an important part of the process of change-- but they need direct their attention at the things that matter most.
Wednesday, April 23, 2008
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27 comments:
) Why not make higher education compulsory, and in doing so greatly increase the motivation to make high school meaningful?
I very much dislike this idea. For all of the talk about a "high tech" society, most jobs don't really require a college degree (except as a sorting mechanism). I think it would be grossly unfair to force the majority of people -- who don't enjoy school all that much in the first place -- to spend another 4+ years and thousands of dollars in tuition (and $100,000 or more in opportunity costs) just to enter into a career that they could have done without a college degree.
I think of the summer I spent working on a loading dock for a large college bookstore. The loading dock manager had an anthropology degree from Brandeis. And this was his career. If he was independently wealthy and simply wanted to spend the time and money to get that degree, great. But it would be a deeply unjust world in which loading dock workers were all FORCED to spend time and money getting a college degree for which they have no use or interest.
First off, "most jobs"? I'm interested in how your calculating that plurality. I guess you could go that way if you assume that the majority of workers in this country can only look forward to working for a fast food chain, or in some retail outfit. I'd dare say that's a pretty short sighted (and dim) view of the economic future of this nation.
Furthermore, it sounds like you're saying that a loading dock manager couldn't benefit from a postsecondary degree or certification (perhaps in logistics management)? I agree that not everyone can financially benefit from a "traditional" liberal arts education a la Brandeis, but there are alternatives (community/technical colleges?). And if there wasn't a market (dare I say need) for that, we wouldn't be seeing the current plague of for-profit higher ed providers. That's not to imply that they are doing a good job - that's a different discussion.
If you're from the "end poverty and segregation" school of thought, aren't you inherently an Education Pessimist?
Seriously, and I mean this respectfully: aren't you saying you believe that short of major social change, the K-16 schools will continue to generate almost no black and Hispanic college grads, because it is near impossible for the schools to be the change agents?
First off, "most jobs"? I'm interested in how your calculating that plurality. I guess you could go that way if you assume that the majority of workers in this country can only look forward to working for a fast food chain, or in some retail outfit. I'd dare say that's a pretty short sighted (and dim) view of the economic future of this nation.
No, I'm assuming that the majority of jobs in the business world don't really require that someone studied at college. Sure, the hiring managers say "college degree," because that's a good way to screen out lower intelligence people. But the vast majority (again, a guess) of what most people do on the job is learned on the job, not in some previous coursework.
Furthermore, it sounds like you're saying that a loading dock manager couldn't benefit from a postsecondary degree or certification (perhaps in logistics management)?
No, as I already said, if he wants to get a degree and has the time and money to do so, then great for him. But it would be absurd to force him to do so, to make it compulsory. That was the question on the table.
Why not--instead of "tinkering at the margins" with school reform--tackle the larger and more systemic problems like ending poverty and racial segregation?
After 40+ years of anti-poverty programs and 50+ years of court-supervised attempts to end segregation you seriously think we should hold off on school reform until those problems are solved?
Why not make higher education compulsory, and in doing so greatly increase the motivation to make high school meaningful?
In what possible way would compulsory higher education increase the motivation to make high school meaningful?
I cannot think of any way to make higher education compulsory that would not result in watering down college requirement even more than they already have been.
George
Let me put it this way: The whole human race managed to survive for however many thousands of years with barely anyone getting a college degree until just the past few decades. And I don't believe that there are very many jobs out there that really require that much more study and knowledge than our ancestors had.
A specific example: My grandparents didn't have college degrees. They were just small farmers. But they somehow learned an incredible variety of complicated skills that require much more knowledge than is possessed by the typical advertising major at a university today. They knew how to butcher a cow, deliver a baby (whether farm animals or a neighbor's), plant and harvest many different kinds of crops, sew clothing and fix shoes, build a barn, repair farm equipment, milk cows, shoe horses, and on and on.
They're dead now, but they'll always be an indelible reminder to me that it's fraudulent to claim that a human being must necessarily spend 4 years and $100,000 on a college degree before they can gain a wide body of complicated knowledge. That's just not a necessary feature of life on earth. While I loved college myself, I think it would be deeply unjust for us to keep moving towards a world in which more and more people have to waste their time and money getting a certificate that serves no real purpose other than saying "now you have society's permission to get a job."
But the vast majority (again, a guess) of what most people do on the job is learned on the job, not in some previous coursework.
So, how do you feel about compulsory K-12 education? "A few decades" ago you could walk out of high school and get a job at GM. Back a ways further, there was no education required for many jobs. If you play your argument out, there's no need for any formal education.
There's also the argument that there is some general benefit to society inherent in education above and beyond preparing someone for the world of work. But my sense is that argument might fall on deaf ears...
Back a ways further, there was no education required for many jobs.
Yes! That's exactly what I'm saying is a better world than one in which people have to jump through specious concocted hoops just to get a job.
Compulsory K-12? Well, I'm going to be honest here: The first six grades are probably useful -- learning to read, learning basic math, learning the basics of history. But I frankly don't remember the first thing about anything that I studied in high school -- trigonometry, calculus, chemistry, physics, Latin, etc. If you don't have a career in a particular subject, the knowledge quickly disappears.
Exactly what benefit is it to society that I had a chemistry class 20 years ago? Zero, I'd say. And it's worth zero to me whether other people take classes in high school that they will then forget. Yes, some people may be an exception, but you're going to have a very hard time quantifying what "benefit" society receives by having most people take high-school classes that they will immediately forget.
So yeah, I'd say that people should be willing to think about what compulsory high school is supposedly accomplishing, rather than just accepting whatever is the current dogma. (And needless to say, I'm skeptical when people in the education industry itself propose to make their product mandatory! Not that they're making such a proposal in bad faith -- not at all -- but it's only natural for people to have a strong unconscious bias towards feeling that whatever they do is of immense value to society. What's good for GM is good for America, you know.)
Note -- I'm not saying that I'd get rid of high school. We need something for teenagers to do, something that at least has a small chance of being useful.
Still, unlike most people, I'm skeptical of the usual hand-waving claims that "society" experiences some magical "benefit" from the fact that the average apathetic teenager sits through a geometry class that is quickly forgotten.
Spectacular analysis Sara Goldrick-Rab. Thank you.
Anonymous says: 'After 40+ years of anti-poverty programs and 50+ years of court-supervised attempts to end segregation you seriously think we should hold off on school reform until those problems are solved?'
I would say we had about 18 months of genuine anti-poverty programs then the anonymous's right wing and the Vietnam war eliminated that; and of course Mr. Nixon's Southern Strategy pretty effectively derailed desegregation efforts about 24 months after they were launched. So we had pretend anti-poverty programs and desegregation efforts that put us today in a worse position, with regard to poverty and segregation, than we were in 1965.
Forget all that. Leave all that aside. Goldrick-Rab did not suggest holding off on school reform until these problems were solved. A fair reading of what she suggests is that the wealthiest nation in the world can probably walk and chew gum at the same time and that both sides of the equation need attention. I, in fact, would go further and argue that new-cons (Conservatives pretending to have a social conscience) and neo-liberals (Republicans masquerading as Democrats) have consciously adopted school reform as a smokescreen behind which they can ignore growing poverty (and its educational side effects) in the United States.
Many thanks, Sara Goldrick-Rab. Keep up the good work -- and good luck with that new son.
I, in fact, would go further and argue that new-cons (Conservatives pretending to have a social conscience) and neo-liberals (Republicans masquerading as Democrats) have consciously adopted school reform as a smokescreen behind which they can ignore growing poverty (and its educational side effects) in the United States.
That's not an "argument." It's just a gratuitous and unsupportable accusation of bad faith. Those sorts of accusations could be equally brought against both sides, so it might be worthwhile to leave them behind.
Thanks for the discussion. It's very rewarding to see it taking place.
For the record "anonymous" was spot-on in terms of interpreting my intentions..and, Stuart-- I'm not at all certain that his contentions regarding the political expediency of pushing "school reform" vs. other agendas are unsupported. Would be worthy of a decent analysis, at the very least.
I personally know some voucher advocates -- Jay Greene and Clint Bolick, for example -- and the notion that they're just masquerading in order to find an excuse to ignore poverty is . . . well, it's unprintable on what I presume is a family blog.
If the accusation is made towards run-of-the-mill conservatives -- well, most conservatives aren't really voucher supporters anyway. So the notion that they support vouchers for convenient purposes doesn't even get off the ground.
And as I suggested, there are too many unsupported attacks like this on both sides. Voucher advocates do sometimes accuse people like "anonymous" of hating poor black people (by taking a position that traps them in bad schools).
The problem with this sort of specious attack is that 1) it begins by assuming that the speaker knows -- really knows -- what is best for poor people (vouchers, or not-vouchers), and then 2) it assumes that the other side secretly agrees that [vouchers or not-vouchers] are best and the REAL reason that the other side takes the wrong position is because it willfully wants to harm poor people.
Which is why I think it's probably better just to analyze people's positions, rather than inventing motivations to impute to them.
Clint Bolick? That's your defense? Surely you're kidding. I rest my case.
Bolick is a poster child for contempt for the public purposes of government. The Goldwater Institute. The nutty Landmark Legal Foundation. Wisconsin Voucher. Hell, he even worked for Clarence Thomas in Reagan's EEOC shop.
Bolick shares with his ally Grover Norquist, the architect of Bush's tax cuts, nothing but contempt for public employees. In Norquist's memorabel put down, "My goal is to cut government in half in twenty-five years,to get it down to the size where we can drown it in the bathtub."
So, when I say that neo-cons and neo-liberals are using school reform as a smokescreen behind which to ignore pressing national challenges such as the demonization of the poor, continued low-level racial animosity in the United States and the assault on the middle class I say it not to impugn their motives unfairly but to describe precisely what anyone who reads the newspaper every day can see is happening.
Clint Bolick? I find it hard to believe you're that naive.
OK, I realize that you obviously have your opinion (although not the courage to sign your name), and that nothing I say is going to change your mind.
Still, I've been in a room where Clint Bolick was speaking privately, and he literally started crying when he spoke about the poor inner-city black families in Cleveland that he was representing in a voucher case. (FYI, here is an article by one black mother from Cleveland that was represented by Bolick.)
There was no reason for him to put on an act -- in fact, this was the perfect occasion for him to rub his hands and cackle maniacally, if he in any way resembled your biased description. To the contrary, more than anyone else I've ever met -- including anyone I met at Harvard -- he exuded heartfelt sincerity about wanting to help those families.
Again, I'd urge anyone who has even a bit of openmindedness to consider that people who disagree with you might really be sincere and well-meaning. The quality of education debates is not improved by making vicious ad hominem attacks.
Sorry, Stuart, but I'm going to have to agree that raising the Clint Bolick flag is going to get your some push-back, especially given the context. I'm going to do my best to maintain a sense of decorum, but your last post may actually push me over the edge.
Now, I'm not in a position to divine Bolick's motivations, I can only go on his public record - which has over the last decade-plus included both pushing vouchers and privatization of public education, but also aggressive attacks on affirmative action. He may well be sincere and "well-meaning" about his motivations. He may deeply believe that vouchers are good, and affirmative action is bad (wrong?) - and he may feel it deeply enough to cause tears at some meeting. Bully for him.
I also believe that if you look at the broader agenda that Bolick, Greene, and others are pursuing, it does have the appearance of an agenda that is working diligently to de-fund public schools, lower taxes for reach people, ensure preferential treatment for whites in higher education, not to mention using things like affirmative action, vouchers and (in the case of the Manhattan Institute - Greene's home), immigrations as wedge issues in political contests. And I'm only saying "appearance" at this point, because giving documentation of all that would be a much longer post.
So, yes, raising the flag of the pro-voucher, anti-affirmative action, anti-immigration "lobby" is almost guaranteed to get you some push-back. At the expense of having a productive discussion of the issues raised in the original post. And the issues raised by your earlier posts in this discussion.
Kind of like yelling "fire" in a crowded theater...
Mark -- I'm not asking you to agree with Bolick on any issue (let alone every issue). Clearly you think he's wrong on various issues. Still, as a matter of basic decency, I think it should be possible to recognize people who disagree with you may really be well-intentioned, and that not all disagreements about education policy are reducible to "they disagree with me, therefore they're evil."
Maybe I'm too optimistic.
Naive? Optimistic? Pick your description. But when you come on to a blog, who's stated purposes is to "draw attention to the power of society, schools, colleges and educators to empower individuals, further learning, and reduce inequities," and you bring up folks like Bolick and Greene... Well, let's just say this isn't some simple disagreement. You're bringing up individuals who represent a movement to set the clock back on civil rights in this country. And, I'm sorry, to say that somehow, the intent of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 was to ensure that white men could still get preferential treatment in college admissions and public contracting, yeah, we're talking about some fundamental disagreements here. And I'm not even going to address whether that argument rises to the level of "decency."
If you want to continue discussing the purposes of public education, and it's relationship to employment, that's fine with me. But I think things will get dicey if you continue to accuse folks of ad hominem attacks (my experience has been that's always the next step in a losing argument - next thing you know we're going to be accused of being Nazis).
OK, forget I ever mentioned Bolick. I'll leave it as this: the claim that people who support vouchers/charters are just doing so as a smokescreen strikes me as a silly ad hominem -- it's an irrelevant attack on motive, it's unsubstantiated, and the (relatively few) conservatives and libertarians who support vouchers were never going to support huge anti-poverty programs anyway.
There are some conservatives who support a campaign to stop prison rape (including Chuck Colson of Watergate fame). The fact that Colson was a bad guy in Watergate times, or the fact that you don't like other conservative positions he has now, doesn't make it a bad thing to be against prison rape.
That's why ad hominem attacks are irrelevant. That's why, if someone wants to attack vouchers, the only intelligent way to do it is directly, not by armchair psychoanalysis of the motives and sincerity of unnamed individuals.
But I think things will get dicey if you continue to accuse folks of ad hominem attacks (my experience has been that's always the next step in a losing argument - next thing you know we're going to be accused of being Nazis).
That's completely backwards. Pointing out an ad hominem argument shows that I'm trying to AVOID the "you're a Nazi" arguments and instead focus on substance.
Fair enough, Stuart, back to substance...
How is it that you can substantiate the claim that very few conservatives or libertarians support vouchers? It's pretty much accepted at this point that increasing the availability of vouchers is a significant piece of the conservative agenda. AEI, Heritage, etc., not to mention the GOP all support vouchers. As for libertarians, their support for vouchers can very easily be tied to their larger agenda to de-fund government, and increase the privatization of tax-paid public services.
And back to substance, you state that I'm skeptical of the usual hand-waving claims that "society" experiences some magical "benefit" from the fact that the average apathetic teenager sits through a geometry class that is quickly forgotten.. I think that's part of the agenda related to K-12 reform, so we can reduce the number of "apathetic teenagers" who are just making time in school. Really good teachers can engage those students so they can actually get something out of geometry.
This is not to say I disagree with your sentiment that much of education has been reduced to a series of hoops that students have to jump through. That's one of the arguments against the testing regime of NCLB - given that the evidence connecting more testing with better achievement is pretty thin (if not nonexistent). The same could be said of higher ed. I'm not going to say it, because I am one of those hopeless saps who believes that there's more to a college education than getting a job. But if your argument is that education should necessarily equal employment, let's debate that. Speaking of substance...
How is it that you can substantiate the claim that very few conservatives or libertarians support vouchers?
Because, when push comes to shove, a lot of conservatives aren't particularly anxious to provide inner-city black kids with an opportunity to go to private schools; and because, when school choice was put to a vote in one of the most conservative states (Utah), it lost.
That's one of the arguments against the testing regime of NCLB - given that the evidence connecting more testing with better achievement is pretty thin
Actually, I'm going to switch places with you! I think that if schooling has any benefit at all, it's in teaching kids the basic skills of reading and math (without which you can't go on to learn anything else). I'm agnostic on what testing should be imposed, but it seems reasonable to me that when governments spend some $500 billion a year on the education industry in this country, there should be at least a little bit of accountability.
But if your argument is that education should necessarily equal employment, let's debate that.
For the third time, that's not my argument.
Well, Stuart, you've got me stumped. First, you write that
the notion that they're just masquerading in order to find an excuse to ignore poverty is . . . well, it's unprintable .... [and] the notion that they support vouchers for convenient purposes doesn't even get off the ground
Then you write that
a lot of conservatives aren't particularly anxious to provide inner-city black kids with an opportunity to go to private schools
And somewhere in the middle, you tell a story about how heartfelt Bolick's commitment to that poor Black woman from Cleveland was. You were making a point about personally knowing these conservatives who support vouchers, but then make the point that conservatives don't actually support vouchers. But if they did, they're clearly not doing it for the benefit of inner-city black kids.
I realize this may be getting a bit off-topic, but I'm feeling like you need to either (a) make up your mind, or (b) get your stories straight. First your accusing someone of making a gratuitous and unsupportable accusation of bad faith when the poster in question made the claim that conservative are school reform as a smokescreen behind which they can ignore growing poverty, then you're making the point that conservatives don't really care about inner-city black kids.
Looks to me like you just made a point that you previously called gratuitous and unsupportable.
Which is it?
The contradiction you identify is not really a contradiction -- I'm talking about different people. Think of two groups of people:
1: Rank and file conservatives (who often don't really support vouchers in the first place -- at least not when they have a chance to vote vouchers up or down). Yes, these people (like most liberals, for that matter) don't really care about the problems of inner-city black people, but it's not as if they then go out and support vouchers as a smokescreen.
2: People who are famous for supporting vouchers (who really do think that vouchers and school reform would help poor inner-city black people, and who don't deserve a baseless accusation of insincerity any more than you do).
1. I haven't seen the data on how rank and file conservatives feel about vouchers. But I do believe the comment above about smokescreens was directed not at rank and file types, but the Clint Bolick and Grover Norquist types. Which leads to...
2. These folks who are famous for supporting vouchers have literally made careers out of not only supporting vouchers, but also by annihilating affirmative action programs and gutting civil rights law. Those are hardly indicators of any interest in "inner-city" black folks. These guys (and yes, they're mostly men) are viscously anti-union, anti-civil rights, and anti-public education.
And for the record, Black support for vouchers is pretty minimal. And those "famous" Black folks who do support vouchers, tend to be the same kind of folks who are anti-affirmative action, and anti-civil rights (think Ward Connerly and Armstrong Williams). So, please, don't charge me with baseless accusations of insincerity when the record is pretty clear on Bolick and his associates.
1. I'm not sure what you mean by "gutting civil rights law." You'll have to be more specific.
2. And for the record, Black support for vouchers is pretty minimal.
Can you prove that? Most polls I've seen show that more blacks than whites support vouchers.
3. Has it crossed your mind that some people might sincerely think that the best way to help inner-city black people is not to give them a theoretical chance of preferential treatment in college admissions, but to give them more educational options starting in kindergarten?
Sure, some of the people who dislike affirmative action are racist, but some people sincerely believe that it is discrimination when a publicly-funded university requires Asian-American students to score 300 points higher on the SAT than black or Hispanic students to be admitted. And some of those same people are, nonetheless, concerned about the fact that in many inner cities in America, the high school dropout rate is upwards of 40 or 50%, and the educational options aren't all that great. So they sincerely think that the way to achieve equality would be to improve black educational options from the ground up, not to give special treatment in college admissions.
Again, you don't have to agree with this position. Everyone should, however, at least try to imagine the world from someone else's perspective.
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